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    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    Hi everyone,

    I've started a new project, named Alchemy. It's basically a B&M invert coaster based on Nemesis (as you can see in the first part of the ride), but with some big differences in further lay-out and theming. Since I'm working on a Mac, I can't use any tools and my Sketchup models always appear really bad, I'm helping myself out with some existing 3DS blocks ("sistawartunghalle") and the Rock Pack of Bye Tom - for which I would like to give him all credits, even if he mentioned it wasn't necessary. Don't forget that nothing on this ride is final: there are still some smoothing issues, landscaping is just for helping my imagination and the rest of the scenery (rocks, walkway, environment, ...) is all temporarily. The theming is going to be a mixed medieval-fantasy theme, but I haven't figured it out completely yet. Anyway, picturetime!







    Comments are more than welcome!
  1.  
    For building your scenery RCT style that actually looks pretty good. Can't wait to see more. ;)
  2.  
    Funny, the beginning of an inverted coaster I have long since scrapped started off exactly like this coaster does - A Nemesis-ish pre-drop into a corkscrew shaped almost exactly like that.

    Anyway, that thing looks cool! Did you, by any chance, take some inspiration from Nemesis? (The main drop and the turnaround in the last pic remind me so much of it.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorOinzCEO17
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    I really like it, the over bank In the last pic looks like the best element I've seen for a B&M invert, like originality wise and fun-to-ride-ness. Keep it up and you'll have a winner on your hands here!
  3.  
    Looks fun, if not a bit dark. Because of NL rubbish lighting and my colour-blindness im gonna struggle knowing what is going on in some of the darker areas.
    • CommentAuthorrctthebest
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    just what archy said, little to dark.

    you have an original line-up of elements. and i beg you, in honour of nemesis make it a holy Geez G force ride (high G's i mean :D )
  4.  
    The Immelmann looks really weird, but the rest looks awesome. Pretty good scenery for plug-n-play!
  5.  
    Posted By: AJClarke0912The Immelmann looks really weird


    That's because it goes the opposite direction.
  6.  
    Yeah, I see that it does. It looks like it has adamant flow, but it's going to be a little weird nonetheless.
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    Thanks for all the quick comments!

    @The_Architect: I know, I'm gonna try to make a decent environment to make it a little brighter. But I'm gonna keep that as a last thing to do I think :-)

    @ AJClarke0912: I understand your concern about the Immelmann, the G's are all right though, but I'm still trying to improve its shaping. As gigacoasterfan said, it's positioned in the opposite direction to give it a special touch - and to improve the 'twisty' feeling, if you know what I mean :-)
    • CommentAuthorBye Tom
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012 edited
     
    Real nice layout, provides some great interaction with itself and the scenery you're building around it. And wow, really awesome use of my rocks!
    •  
      CommentAuthorbaadrix
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    I was thinking of such an Immelmann on an inverted coaster, too - I kinda love this weirdness (that's why I'm a fan of the new B&M style).
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012 edited
     
    I'm really liking this already, but have you thought of a plain old loop? This ride seems to be lacking a loop with the Gs you can only find on an invert. I also see a Nemesis-inspired turnaround in that last photo. I like that a lot.
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    @ baadrix: I love the new B&M style too, but I'm not planning to copy that much of it, since there aren't any POV-references yet.

    @ LiMiT: Yes, I've really been trying hard to find a good fit for a classic, forceful looping, and my first thought was to have it after the turnaround from the last photo. Then you would basically have helix-immelmann-turnaround-cobra-turnaround-looping, and it might sound odd, but that would've been to much 'turnaround-loop' I think. So I preferred a zero-G roll :-)
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    I like your idea of the loop right after the turnaround. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Nemesis has a loop right after its turnaround. I see that you have Nemesis inspiration, so why not add a loop? I personally find a loop more important than a zero-g-roll, but if you can't fit it in, I understand.
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    There would be a collision with the immelmann since that element is nearly on ground level, or it would have to be positioned a lot higher to cross it (but than the G-forces would be really low because of the lack of speed). The objective of the last turnaround is to have a surprising last drop with some serious G's (to compensate the looping :-), and I thought it was a good combination with a zero-G roll that creates a near-misser with the cobra roll.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    Sounds good.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLing
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     
    I think it's a brilliant layout. Very original. The only thing that bothers me is the shaping on the immleman - it looks very off, probably because of the direction. Other than that, though, the interaction, the mixture of elements, and the concept are all great. If it has good pacing we may have ourselves quite the experience.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012 edited
     
    How about reversing the immelman's rotation? B&M makes inversions like that so the ride can fluidly transition from an inversion into a turn. It seems to me you have a nice intense turn immediately following the immelman.

    Exhibit A:

    immelman
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
     
    @Ling: I already have a new idea for the immelmann, no worries! And thanks for the comments :-)

    @LiMiT: Oh, I never realized Fire had such an element! I had already checked out Black Mamba's jr. immelmann, but it would've been really ugly if I scaled it out. Thanks for the idea, I'll give it a try!
    • CommentAuthorReal
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
     
    And then youve got a couple elements where they do the reverse coming out of Zero G rolls

    It doesnt really matter, its not a design cue they always use. Rolling out from the other direction so you can continue the rotation through to a turn is a very fun way to do it. This way is a bit static and IMO should mostly be done when you dont have enough room to do the continuous rotation from the opposite direction.

    See Silver Bullets Zero G.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012 edited
     
    @Benoit: Yep, I think Fire is the only ride that has a wraparound immelman (or so Wiki says...I don't always trust it).
    @Real: I thought it would be better and make the shaping of the immelman look better. NL has an uncanny ability to make good things look bad from most angles. I was offering an idea. And anyway, this isn't a zero-g-roll, and most (if not all) immelmans rotate towards the inside of the curve after the immelman.
  7.  
    Posted By: LiMiT@Benoit: Yep, I think Fire is the only ride that has a wraparound immelman (or so Wiki says...I don't always trust it).


    Yes, this is true, you can always find out with a POV if you aren't sure.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: A.S.Coasters
    Posted By: LiMiT@Benoit: Yep, I think Fire is the only ride that has a wraparound immelman (or so Wiki says...I don't always trust it).


    Yes, this is true, you can always find out with a POV if you aren't sure.

    What I meant was that I thought there might have been another coaster with a wraparound immelman that Wiki didn't list.
  8.  
    ^Oh, my bad.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
     
    I understand, my post wording is rather ambiguous at times.
    • CommentAuthorReal
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    Posted By: LiMiT
    @Real: I thought it would be better and make the shaping of the immelman look better. NL has an uncanny ability to make good things look bad from most angles. I was offering an idea. And anyway, this isn't a zero-g-roll, and most (if not all) immelmans rotate towards the inside of the curve after the immelman.


    Yea, not all. Daemon at Tivoli has almost the same rotation his does. So since one does, at least in my book it shoots the "rule" out the window.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    Posted By: Real
    Posted By: LiMiT
    @Real: I thought it would be better and make the shaping of the immelman look better. NL has an uncanny ability to make good things look bad from most angles. I was offering an idea. And anyway, this isn't a zero-g-roll, and most (if not all) immelmans rotate towards the inside of the curve after the immelman.


    Yea, not all. Daemon at Tivoli has almost the same rotation his does. So since one does, at least in my book it shoots the "rule" out the window.

    Ahem. Did I not say most (if not all)? I knew there were some exceptions. I think Krake is another exception (don't quote me on that), and anyway, that was just my way of saying "it's a common thing, so try that and see if it looks better", because the fish-eye makes the roll look distorted and it doesn't look like it rides very well, though it probably is quite smooth.
    • CommentAuthorReal
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    Well, to be fair you said "if not all" which implies you were assuming because there was really no assurance in your choice of words. I was merely clearing it up ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    Fair enough.

    Are we going to see any pictures of progress soon?
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2012
     
    It's about time for an update on this ride! I worked on the general smoothing of the ride, and it certainly payed off. The helixes are more powerful, and I've tried - and I'm still trying - to reduce the laterals to the minimum.

    I also made a first version of the supports. They're still in progress; what you can see now is just a first try.

    Landscaping and theming is also in progress; I almost finished the tunnel under the pathway after the cobra roll, and I've started to build the castle around the ride. I realize the look of the walls is kind of boring, so I'm gonna do my best efforts to get some variation in the whole scenery by using rocks, wooden structures (like the queue line), water, trees, ...

    Thanks for commenting!

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
  9.  
    It looks very Nemesis-ish.... I like it a lot! Keep it up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrcrider4
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2012
     
    It looks good, but on the cobra roll, it looks like your roll lasts too long.
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2012
     
    @rcrider4: After some quick Google Maps-measuring, I found out that the cobra roll of Dragon Challenge is about 15m wide (Raptor's is even a little wider). The one on Alchemy is about 17m wide, so about the same size. Or do you guys I should try to make the middle part a bit lower?
  10.  
    Ay-oh this looks cool. I like the layout and colors for sure.

    ^If it's a hassle and requires redoing your layout (i.e. Newton2), no. It looks fine to me.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrcrider4
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2012
     
    That's not what I meant. I mean that your roll lasts for quite a while into the "hood" of the cobra roll, while B&M makes it a quick snap near the top.
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2012
     
    @AJClarke0912: I'm working on a Mac, so it's all hand built. I'm glad you like it!

    @rcrider4: Okay, I understand your concern, but I've tried to make it as smooth as possible, and this way was the easiest. I might try to redo it, but I won't promise anything :-) Thanks for remarking it though!
  11.  
    "As smooth as possible" is not always the best nor the most realistic route on a B&M invert. I'd make sure to know exactly what style B&M invert I was making (big difference between 1992 and 2012), then check out some references from the given time frame. That should help a lot I'd think.
    •  
      CommentAuthorskyasaurus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2012
     
    don't forget that inverts like Alpengeist and Katun have longer roll sections on their cobras simply because they are going so fast. and personally, i think looking at this layout, having a 'nicer, more polite' (less snappy) cobra could be welcome in the middle of such an intense layout.

    which, by the way, i really really like this layout. my jaw dropped when i saw you starting to bring in the scenery. this thing is beautiful. i especially like your arrangement of elements, and the pacing looks wonderful. it looks like there won't be a dull moment on the entire ride. truly blown away. it's clear you've put a lot of thought into not only making the layout realistic and unique, but also thinking outside the box on ways you can make this ride stand out. i really like the immelman, i wouldn't be surprised if one of those shows up on a B&M invert later this decade. excellent work.
  12.  
    skyasaurus, I haven't been on Katun, but from over 100 rides on Alpengeist I can tell you it has some of the hardest whips of any cobra roll I've been on. To me, it's also one of the most exciting because the whips make it so powerful.

    You can mix up your intensity...switching between high positives and hard whips may help you keep everything within reason. Also, I'm all for a quick break in intensity here and there (just like you see on all almost real B&M inverts)...I'd just shy away from making that break in intensity happen on an element that could be the exclamation point on your entire ride.
    •  
      CommentAuthorm_haugh16
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2012
     
    the whippiness on alpengiest's cobra roll is the only cobra roll that has ever caused my feet to sting. It is so fun.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLiMiT
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2012
     
    You got the shape of the cobra pretty much spot on! I think that little tweak of the banking snap will do wonders for the intensity. Now what's up with the slow roll in pic 3 below the immlemann?
  13.  
    Yeah I like most of what I see a lot, but I do think tightening up the quality of the shaping in some places will really make it stand out. Right now it's a great layout with inconsistent trackwork, based on what I can see.
    •  
      CommentAuthorskyasaurus
    • CommentTimeAug 24th 2012
     
    @DC: oops i accidentally combined two ideas in that post; what i meant was that Alpengeist and Katun have more speed going through their cobras than Dragon Challenge and Raptor, so even though the track doesn't snap as much over the same length of segment, they actually snap just as fast if not faster. so I was more questioning how fast it is going through the cobra on this ride. but yeah I didn't convey that very well haha, especially then since I then went into the idea of having a less intense cobra to keep the ride from being too much of a brain scrambler.
  14.  
    I like how in the 4th pic, the brick building stretches where the track goes through it; sort of gives it the appearance of magic, and fits the name well.
    • CommentAuthorBenoit
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2012
     
    Thanks for all your comments, they're very helpful! Certainly the idea of making the timeframe to see which style I'd like to recreate.

    I've been thinking about the cobra roll a lot now, and I think I might redo it and give it that little whip. The positive G-forces before the roll itself (the overbank and the first half of the cobra) are huge, so a little break in intensity would be nice.

    For the time being, I made a first version of the cartexture - I'm not entirely satisfied about it yet, but it's a good start I think.

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    In the station building, which is still in progress of course.

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Turnaround

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Final helix

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    And final overview.

    Thanks for commenting!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSneaky
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2012
     
    Looks good. The train is almost invisible inside station. xD

    ~Sneaky
  15.  
    Love it, that stall turn looks epic. Don't put transports on your turn though, B&M don't do this (I only learnt this the other day).
    •  
      CommentAuthorKingRCT3
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: The_ArchitectB&M don't do this (I only learnt this the other day).


    If the tires are horizontal (like here) you can't put them in a turn. Look at how the beam above the seat go through the tires.. Mechanically impossible.
    If they're vertical, you can.


    Looks good Benoit, though I'm not a fan of your brick texture. Got to see it once the scenery all there.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLJELLIS12
    • CommentTimeAug 26th 2012
     
    IMO I actually really like that car texture you got goin on...everything else is lookin pretty good too. :)