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    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014 edited
     


    So I thought of this in the shower, and I pretty much now have the birth child of Fahrenheit, Storm Runner, Maverick, Speed Monster, and NASA. Featuring a 150 foot tall, 20mph LSM vertical launch into a 95 degree drop, an immelmann, norwegian loop, two corkscrews and lots of twists and airtime.







    (The immelmann's shaping may look strange, because it's based off of Storm Runner's. I liked the look so I tried to model mine off of it.)















    Train color scheme inspired by a few of NASA's rockets, specifically Ares I, but many have orange fuel tanks. I hope to have some cool decals and wear on these.
    • CommentAuthorbigjoe97
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014
     
    This is pretty cool - the concept reminds me of those Zierer coasters, just extended and Intamin. Shaping looks pretty decent from what I can see, although I'd like a couple more angles of the immelmann and the overbank between the big airtime hills. I also would've tried to rein in the layout a bit, because right now you have a reasonably compact layout with a little section sticking out for the corkscrew and final brakes - might've been better to just end after the twisted airtime hill and flat turn.
    • CommentAuthorA113
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014 edited
     
    I like the layout and colors a lot, solid start; however, it might be too long to be one block, you might need an mcbr in there unless you edit some elements out. I agree with bigjoe's observation and I think it makes more sense to end the ride after the inner flat turn following the s hill. I'm a little skeptical of the transition from the drop to the immleman also, but nonetheless I'm looking forward to seeing more progress.
  1.  
    The constant quadrail looks a little ugly in my eyes.

    The layout seems pretty ace though, some nice verity of air-time and inversions.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014
     
    Posted By: bigjoe97This is pretty cool - the concept reminds me of those Zierer coasters, just extended and Intamin. Shaping looks pretty decent from what I can see, although I'd like a couple more angles of the immelmann and the overbank between the big airtime hills. I also would've tried to rein in the layout a bit, because right now you have a reasonably compact layout with a little section sticking out for the corkscrew and final brakes - might've been better to just end after the twisted airtime hill and flat turn.


    I can provide some more angles of the immelmann in a few hours. I might go ahead and try to rework the ending of the layout when I get home and see if I can make any improvements. Thanks!

    Posted By: A113I like the layout and colors a lot, solid start; however, it might be too long to be one block, you might need an mcbr in there unless you edit some elements out. I agree with bigjoe's observation and I think it makes more sense to end the ride after the inner flat turn following the s hill. I'm a little skeptical of the transition from the drop to the immleman also, but nonetheless I'm looking forward to seeing more progress.


    I could try to incorporate an MCBR when I go and see if I can redo the ending of the track. I might end up extending the layout even more that way, but I think I could get it to look nice on top of that if I extended it parallel to the direction the Norwegian Loop is facing, and sort of elongate the layout if you know what I mean. I'm not going for super compact here, the layout just kinda happened to come out that way when I first made it, so it's not a problem for me to make it not so compact on average. I will provide more angles of certain parts of the layout when I get home. Thanks!


    Posted By: RichardLerwillThe constant quadrail looks a little ugly in my eyes.

    The layout seems pretty ace though, some nice verity of air-time and inversions.


    Thank you! I can easily change some of those elements to tri-rails, specifically most of the elements past the Norwegian loop. I think the corkscrew(s) would look better as tri-rails, so thanks for bringing that up.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014 edited
     
    Here are some other views of elements as requested. The immelmann and drop cannot really be changed (in FVD anyway, that would mean redoing the entire layout), and if you compare the immelmann to Storm Runner's you'll see where I got its shaping from. It rides very well, as does everything else in the layout, the pacing is really nice. Plan on trying out new endings once I finish my pre-lab and chem homework..















    Also, some of the track shown here has been changed to tri-rail, mainly the overbank.
  2.  
    I think the Norwegian and almost everything after should be 3-tube.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014 edited
     
    ^ After looking at existing Norwegian Loops I agree.

    Question: Should I append an MCBR after the crest of the second airtime hill, then redo the ending from there? Or append an MCBR after the twisted airtime hill?

    Edit: I think if I took the current layout up to the last airtime hill, put an MCBR at the top of that, then had a drop into a corkscrew into the brakes, that would look good. We'll see though.
  3.  
    All I can say about the Norwegian Loop is ew.... Revision is a must
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2014
     
    ^ Yeah, thanks for being specific. I'm not editing it, I'd have to redo the layout in FVD.
  4.  
    Boo freaking hoo, you get what you get when using FVD... If you want to complain about having to redo a ride due to poor shaping earlier on in a layout then hand build. Don't play the excuse game of, "I'd have to rebuild the whole ride cuz I used FVD so it's not gonna change".

    But since you want me to be more specific here you go. The roll begins too late in the element and should be drawn out a little bit more from what the current angles show (so extend it a little lower into the first inversion) after that comes alot of tweaking to the previous segment of the element (the inclines angle and forces maintained during the element will have to be changed to achieve the "loop" aspect). Now as you already know you have two options for references, Speed Monster and Fahrenheit... Norwegian Loops are a very complex element and take alot of time to figure out and then execute properly. It may take countless hours to master the element but it will pay off with better ratings and less bitching from me... Good Luck.
    • CommentAuthorKyle Sloane
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2014 edited
     
    ^Agreed I cant even look at heretic now because the first half of the Norwegian loop is so nasty. TBH there is nothing after the norwegian loop that is really that valuable anyways. I cant see intamin having two hills next to each other like that. I love the beginning though and the immelman looks pretty good. I think that you should not give up because this project is sick and you have the skill to make this amazing just take a little bit more time on the trackwork.
  5.  
    I think the Norwegian would've been fine if it were larger, but because it's very compact (like Speed Monster's is), the entrance half needs to be just as a rounded as the exit (which is shaped wonderfully).

    How I would go about doing this:
    1. Slightly less steep entrance.
    2. Roll begins sooner
    3. For most of the roll, the forces will be less than 0G. The mistake too often made with Norwegians is to treat the entrance like a dive loop; it's actually quite different from a forces perspective.
    4. The valley is fine, no real need to increase the force any more than it already is.

    In general, the layout is really quite good (though I'd cut the last cork and just hit the brake run after the turn). The shaping is decent, but the Norwegian is a bit off, and I would personally have taken a different approach with the immelmann, to avoid mixing old and new Intamin too much (the immelmann on this track looks quite anachronistic).
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2014
     


    Looking any better? After I took the image I noticed the roll into the element could use some lateral shifting, as well as some on the roll out.
  6.  
    The entrance: yes. The whole: sadly not. Now it's looking somewhat "flattened". Somewhat too oblong. Out of curiosity, what do the forces actually look like through the Norwegian?
  7.  
    Okay, your roll is a little better but you do realize you're going to have to do more than edit some roll nodes?
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2014
     
    I can't be exact because I'm no longer in my computer, but I know the trough pulls 4gs. And yeah I edited more than just roll nodes there, I actually edited more vertices than roll nodes, it's just mostly lateral stuff. I'll work on it some more tomorrow after classes.
  8.  
    Also the transition hill underneath the Norwegian loop is nasty wave turn. You should just redo it once you gather the stamina.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2014 edited
     
    ^ I'll look into doing that as well. Might just redo/refine the layout after the Immelmann in FVD
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014 edited
     
    I seem to be having trouble getting the norwegian loop to look like, well, a norwegian loop. I keep getting this:



    A pretzel loop, and I can't seem to pinpoint how to get the forces, without making them too extreme, and roll to mesh to get something more like this:

    • CommentAuthorbigjoe97
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Start the roll into the element a bit earlier, add some lats, and shorten the force transition and move the center to the left.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    The force transition from negative to positive?
    • CommentAuthorbigjoe97
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Yeah
  9.  
    No, the problem is that using force based sections does not yield the round shape of a Norwegian loop. Use geometric sections for the bottom instead.
  10.  
    It will have high G forces for much longer (by starting earlier) than a normal dive loop or Immelmann.

    ^That advice seems misguided, especially since the forces are fairly constant through the bottom. One can achieve a perfectly fine Norwegian without geometric sections (though it is to be noted that rather high G forces need to be used.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Lookin a little better?..

  11.  
    ^Closer, but still not round enough.

    ^^How do you know a Norwegian has constant forces?
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Round the bottom out?
  12.  
    rotation starts a bit too early. Remember that lats are your friend!
  13.  
    •  
      CommentAuthorMorganFan
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    My guess is forces pick up by about 2G at about 2/3 the way around the loop (around 90 degrees-ish) for the bottom and vice versa for the exit of the valley.
  14.  
    Can we see the forces through that (the color thing)? I'm thinking there may be a problem with the top (that's making the bottom too oblong).

    From about 50-60 degrees down to 50-60 degrees up (in the bottom) there should be a large symmetrical force section, roughly centered (though of course slightly cocked to get the general asymmetry of the element). The sections in either direction will get the forces to/from 3.5-4.0 Gs (you will have to experiment). The large symmetrical force section will have a peak of perhaps as high as 4.25-4.5 but I'd stress that you shouldn't need that much). Reduce the hell out of the tension to get a little "peak" (though not so pointy as to create a pump). This will give you a rounder, more prototypical shape (the resulting forces in the simulator will actually be somewhat different, as Norwegians tend to expend more momentum than FVD++ would suggest).

    The top part is just as important. You should almost "float" through it (achieving a shape somewhat more similar to Fahrenheit's) The transition from float to being pushed happens relatively quickly, though if done at the right point there is a wonderfully round shape created without a pump. You'll need to fiddle with it a bit.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014 edited
     


    Not edited from last update.

    Dustin - I'll tweak the roll and I'm using a bit of lats now, but I'll see what else I can accomplish with them
  15.  
    Something else to look at: the track flexion. That can be your best friend when figuring out where the roll and lats should go.
  16.  
    I actually think mightbeawwanabe has got it. You entrance is too shallow.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Posted By: mightbeawannabeSomething else to look at: the track flexion. That can be your best friend when figuring out where the roll and lats should go.


    What should I look for in terms of flexion?
  17.  
    Perhaps take a picture; seeing what's there will be easier than going through all the possibilities. In general, try to avoid little sections of a different color, especially avoid something like this: ...YYYOYOYY.. (abbreviations for yellow and orange, just example colors).
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    This is probably really bad then..

  18.  
    Not as bad as it looks. Haha

    You'll need to get rid of the pink section. The red area isn't necessarily bad, and will improve once the roll and lays are correctly placed. The pink area needs some attention to forces and section lengths. The punctuation of orange shows that the forces/general attempt needs a bit of tinkering. Basically, the forces are happening at the wrong time. But that problem seems to be because of the pink area.

    All is fixable. Don't worry.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     


    It appears that I've worked some of the extreme flexion points out to a certain point, but how do I get the second half of the element to end where it ends in Fahrenheit/Speed Monster? It looks like it should be ending so that the peak of the roll is on the same level as part of the ascending track, and that doesn't seem to want to happen without some pretty extreme forces
  19.  
    Well I'm glad to see you asking for advice on this element, pretty much what I would suggest doing right now is changing the track style from 4 tube to 3 within FVD for this element alone, feel free to change it back afterwards for the rest of the ride but your goal is to recreate the Norwegian Loop found on an existing ride so why hinder the visualization aspect (which is what shaping is all about right?). After doing that just start from scratch.... It sounds weird but whenever I get an element that just isn't working out the way I want it to, I just delete it and start fresh, it lets you try things you didn't think of previous to that refresh and gives you a better chance of getting the desired results since you've been staring at a picture of the element as a whole for hours. It also changes things up, so as opposed to trying to figure out why the second inversion isn't turning out properly you can work on another part of the element and grind out the kinks there to give you a better chance of finding a solution to the initial problem (and gaining back ambition to work on the initial issue since it gets old doing the same thing for an hour).

    As far as the design of the element goes, Sloane has already said it, lats are your friend. They help to keep the pitch steadied in places where the element would otherwise fall and can make a big difference when it comes to keeping the proper shape during the second inversion. As you're finding out, there is no plug and chug formula for any element in FVD, the task is tedious as hell and can drive you insane at times, but as soon as you nail the Norwegian, you'll feel like a champ. Guaranteed.
    Best of luck to ya man.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    ^ I don't think FVD allows 3-tubed? (At least not the version I'm using..). I started to work on it from scratch and feel that I grasped what I was trying to do much better. Thanks for the advice in the first place and sorry for being an ass about it, I was probably cranky or tired from school or something. I'll get back to this thread when I feel like I've nearly perfected the element and we'll go from there!
  20.  
    It doesn't? Just go to properties, track style (or whatever its called) and test all of them, I have it in the version I'm using currently.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Oh yeah duh. It looks better already! Lol
  21.  
    It does allow 3 tube idk where exactly
    • CommentAuthorWomp83
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Brawly, i had a very similar idea to this that i started working on back in the NL1 days. I wanted to finish it off, but i wasn't overly happy with the layout, so it got scrapped.
    But if you'd like to see what i had, just say so and i can share a pic or two. That's if you don't mind me posting pics of something i made in your thread, lol.
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    I don't mind you posting pics here. I'd love to see it!
    • CommentAuthorWomp83
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    Cool. Well here you go then.
    This was my un-named NASA coaster. These were from a very early stage of 'construction'. I did end up completing the layout, but this thing was FAST. And i had to spread everything out to try and keep G's in the green.
    Anyway, i kinda lost my way with it after the halfway point, and tried a few things that just didn't work out. Which led to it's demise.
    But as you can see from the pics, the space theme and idea is just about the same. I was going to do up the support structure for the launch to make it look like those massive structures you see next to a shuttle getting prepped. Would've been one hell of a support structure for a simple piece of track. My launch was a bit longer though.. And your layout looks more compact than mine was ever likely to be, lol.

    NASA coaster1

    NASA coaster2

    Before i go, here's a small idea. Have you thought about doing up some little 3ds rocket booster shrouds, like on the rear of a shuttle or rocket, and attaching them to the rear of the train?
    I like what you've got so far, looking good. :)
    • CommentAuthorBrawly
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     
    ^ That looks so cool! Very impressive that it's all supports, and it looks really sick.

    I actually am way ahead of you, I modeled some rocket nozzles that I intended on sticking on the end of the trains, but I went in game and realized that there's not place for them to go.. I might model some small solid rocket boosters or something and try sticking them on the side. Thanks for some inspiration!
    • CommentAuthorWomp83
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2014
     
    Thanks. :)

    Ah nice, you are doing that. Maybe in your rocket nozzle model, you could put them on a small plate or a cover of some sort that will fit around the frame of the 2 rear seats. Giving them somewhere to go.. Just a thought.
    But the solid rocket boosters on the sides of the car idea sounds pretty good too. That should look cool.

    Just had an idea while looking at your trains. Let me know what you think about this.
    Model the solid rocket booster, then split it into 3 pieces (top, middle, bottom) and attach each piece in order to the sides of the 3 orange cars. So it looks like 1 big long rocket booster going along the side.