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      CommentAuthorFüchschen
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017 edited
     
    It feels like this com is turning into a "Free-2-Play" comunity.
    complaining about tiny details missing, hating about fantasy coasters.

    Now someone just needs to create a competetive game in Nolimits and we are officially a "Free-2-Play" comunity. Woot! Woot! :D


    I heard, that this wasnt always the case, so what was the trigger, that changed all of that.
    Would really like to see what this comunity was like, back when every kind of rollercoaster was accepted.
    A constructive comment on a missing detail is ok, but saying why s.o. dares to create a thread about a coaster is not so constructive.

    As long as something is made in NL2 (and other coaster programs/games), its ontopic and should deserve a thread if needen.

    Or at least: ignore it, but dont be salty.
    [irony:ON](or i make my threat real and create a Nolimits 2 free 2 play game. Then you are also a low-level-com) >.> [irony:OFF]


    Question:
    What kind of comunity is this here and what kind should it represent?
    A Helpfull comunity or a salty comunity?
  1.  
    This is exactly why I'm not so active here anymore. This community is not the same as it used to be and I miss the old one.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDanSm1l3r
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017 edited
     
    Could not put it better myself.

    There is an attitude held by some individuals in the NoLimits 2 community that lets it down. Disrespect for other members based on location, age, gender identity, etc comes to mind immediately but as you've said above, the disdain for fantasy coasters that couldn't possibly exist. OneTrackMind is a good example of this. Makes absolutely incredible coasters yet gets slated because they're 'unrealistic'.

    Is this not what NoLimits 2 is about??? The clue's in the name people!

    I also feel the need to address the obvious lack of respect and gratitude towards the developers for the time and effort they put in. Requesting extra features or immediate fixes because something you like or want isn't there is immature and ungrateful. Limited ambient occlusion? Deal with it, it's fine as it is. No RMCs? Who cares! We have a custom pack from TheCodeMaster that is MORE than capable of doing the job until the devs see it fit to integrate the track style into NL2.

    Staff feel free to remove this post if it's too aggressive, but I'm making my thoughts known. There is a lack of respect in this community and people need to sort it out.
    • CommentAuthorJAKool
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    I agree to an extent. I don't see many fantasy coasters on these forums at all. We're critical when someone posts a coaster that is trying to be realistic and needs work. I feel like this discussion has been had other places. If someone posts a picture of "an Intamin Accelerator" and it doesn't look like one at all, you're going to get feedback and criticism. I can't remember the last time someone has been rude giving feedback on these forums.

    How are the devs supposed to know what we want if we don't ask for features? The devs rolled out a fancy new update and we did nothing but praise it for a week. Then we realized that there are bugs. It feels like since the dev team is so small, they feel like if we criticize a certain aspect of the game or suggest a new feature, they feel like we're personally insulting their work or aren't satisfied with the content they deliver. Aside from a certain few who may be possibly be younger or foreign and can't convey themselves fluently, we don't beg for updates or complain about them. I think the restlessness near the update release came from the fact that there was little to no communication for almost a year. We miss the times when we'd get responses about features or our feedback from the earlier days of NL2.

    So don't stereotype the community based on a few comments you saw. Maybe Dan can have a bit more insight because he sees what people say on chatrooms off of the forums, but I really don't see where you're coming from looking at these forums.
  2.  
    Yeah I haven't seen most of what you described at all. Maybe I'm just oblivious. I've seen some posts where the developers got upset, JAKool addressed that, but I really haven't seen anything particularly hateful or negative toward coaster designs.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDanSm1l3r
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017 edited
     
    @Jake I'll admit a lot of what I've observed and noted takes place outside the forums in chatrooms but it's really no excuse for any of the negative stuff. I've been spoken to by some people saying they don't like the community because of the nature of what's posted in the NL2 Discord channel for instance, something that's been created for everyone but is now taken up by spam by individuals.
    •  
      CommentAuthorZingo
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    ^what chatrooms xD?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDanSm1l3r
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    You really don't want to be there. Trust me.
  3.  
    This is sort of why I like web dev, or at least just seeing how forum communities develop and everything, and I think the NoLimits community in general is pretty interesting. Each forum has it's own personality and such. There are a few reasons why I think NLE criticizes more on things like shaping / realism / etc.

    For one, realism could just be a standard a lot of people on nle hold. If you look way way back, coastersims was like, the place for NoLimits and what not. I wasn't around back then but from what I know people who took the site and community less seriously went to coastercrazy, and when coastersims was shut down everyone went to here, NLE, since it was supposed to be a replacement for coastersims. So people who took realism and NL more seriously were already on this site, so it could have easily become a standard for realistic coasters, which also means custom / fantasy coasters are looked down on (regardless of their actual quality). I think this point is about 50 / 50 though, since it is just a minority of users who actually judge only based on realism. I'll admit I'm guilty of that, but if a user is new and they're making a coaster I'll obviously keep that in mind.

    Not to advertise NLC or anything, buuuut I do think that it could also have something to do with the exchange and forum separation. While NLE was new it didn't necessarily harm anything, but as the site's grown the disconnect has become bigger and bigger. The projects we see on the exchange vs projects we see on the forums are very different. The exchange portion of NLE may as well be a completely different and separate website. That's a goal of NLC, to help join the exchange and forums again by putting them side by side and giving a better feeling of community.
    •  
      CommentAuthorFüchschen
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    dont get me wrong.

    im totally fine with criticism.
    But there is criticism and there is "go away, you don't belong to us".

    i dont care if it happens to me, but when it happens to others, i'll get a bit upset. :(
    •  
      CommentAuthorjpaufsc
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    ^ When has anyone ever said that here on this forum? If these kinds of things are happening in chats elsewhere, perhaps someone should address the chat instead of the entire forum. I've been in the NLE community for a while now and apart from a few exceptions, everyone here is supportive while being critical of people's work. Even back when I was new, I got plenty of constructive criticism that helped me become better. In general, I haven't really seen any changes in out community aside from members coming and going.
    •  
      CommentAuthorZergei
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017 edited
     
    ^ In times where people get very frustrated about a new member and their habits, this is the overall message being conveyed by what is said to the user. I remember two recent members in particular, one which has been seemingly inactive for a while now (most likely because of the backlash). The people with criticism had a reason to be annoyed, but the things posted were direct flames. I was part of that in a way, and I think all of us on the site have our faults whether common or unusual. I apologize for that, and I hope the others understand my point too.

    Also, I think the interpretation of a post(s) has everything to do with the other members reactions. For instance I never mean to cause annoyance, but there are those who don't understand my point of view and therefore share their mind in an unattractive way. Peaceful discussion over thoughts and disagreements is the only way to handle it. Grudges and repeated strikes against individuals should not happen at all, because what you see isn't usually what the intent was. Watch how you phrase things, and think about how others will actually see it so you don't make things bad or worse. Forgive others and move on, and be open to their way of thinking.

    Lastly, I think being supportive of others no matter what experience level they are is very important to keeping people interested and feeling welcomed. I do not intend to complain, but sometimes I myself feel left alone on my personal projects. I stopped posting my current work on my own thread due to the lack of comments coming in. I would love to share what I'm making, but I question if it's worth it if my response is silence or an un-shared negative opinion. This sometimes happens on other new-ish user threads, and usually does not on members with larger reputations. Give others the chance to feel cared for, or else they may never reach their full potential! I've only stuck with it because of my interest, determination to get better, and support from individuals who care for me and what I do. I think everyone should feel that way. Do not think you are better or superior than others, because no one wants to be around a person like that. See others as equals and give them the opportunity to be like you.

    That is what I have to say on the matter. Füchschen has raised an important discussion topic that may allow us to improve as a whole, and I thank you!
    • CommentAuthorBigbad
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: jpaufsc^ When has anyone ever said that here on this forum?
    There was a member whose username had something to do with a carbon rifle-knife. For whatever reason, some members decided that their lives would improve if they mocked some 14-year-old. But that does seem like the exception.

    (What happened with him really wasn't okay, though.)

    Posted By: DanSm1l3rI also feel the need to address the obvious lack of respect and gratitude towards the developers for the time and effort they put in. Requesting extra features or immediate fixes because something you like or want isn't there is immature and ungrateful. Limited ambient occlusion? Deal with it, it's fine as it is. No RMCs? Who cares! We have a custom pack from TheCodeMaster that is MORE than capable of doing the job until the devs see it fit to integrate the track style into NL2.
    I have to disagree with this paragraph. NL2 isn't free software. We all paid to become stakeholders. Outright whining isn't okay, especially if you're on this forum and thus part of the community, but we can expect more than a bare minimum from this product we purchased.

    The developers seem to know this, but I do feel like I've seen a couple of posts from regular members (particularly in the "wish list" thread) about why we should treat the staff like delicate flowers.
    •  
      CommentAuthorRobotnik
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    ^ Having taken a hiatus before this whole thing with Mr. DB crescendoed, what actually happened to him?

    (I was around when this whole thing started - you don't need to tell me all the backstory)
    • CommentAuthorBigbad
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2017
     
    I told him to whisper with me about FVD++ so he wouldn't have to put down vertices, which I find annoying and is why I do FVD++. In our discussion, he indicated that he was interested in one of the other coaster simulators, maybe Planet Coaster. Whether or not that's because some people on here elected to be rude is only something he knows, though he did seem to be making progress in NL2.
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      CommentAuthorTyrush
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    Honestly it is just the current state of society. We lost the ability to conform and work with what we got to make the best of it. Instead people bitch and complain without realizing the effort that went in to make it good in the first place. It is going to be the bane of our generations existence but do not lose all hope, not everyone has been effected by this out burst...

    From
    A college kid lol
    •  
      CommentAuthorride_op
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    For those who won't read it all, here's the tl:dr: be nice

    *****

    Thanks Ty, this right here is exactly the point. Not all, but some people on this site go straight for criticizing without stopping to point out anything good. For these people negative is the only thing that comes to mind. They have to point it out to show flaws, errors, and wrongness. It's empowering to the person posting and makes that person feel like they are better, smarter, showing off knowledge under the guise of being "helpful". Problem is when someone's first response is "that drop's shaping isn't Intamin enough", the underlying tone is: "you're doing it wrong". That's what makes people not want to contribute. New folks see this and do not want to subject their coasters to it while they're learning. Unless you're perfect, don't bother is the way it comes across. Does not matter what you intended...it's how other people read it and perceive it. Criticizing turns people defensive, starts arguments, and feeds into a negative cycle. Constructive comments and feedback do the opposite and encourages people to do better.

    Now on to the update. I won't name any names, but having read the reactions to the update when it posted, some people went straight to pointing out things they didn't like with a tone of "this is not what I expect/deserve, fix it now". Yes, many people praised it and got excited and created a bunch of awesome content. For a select few, the first things posted were complaints in that annoying tone that really gets under our skin. And these were often among the first few items posted, not a week later after glowing praise.

    Here's a truism that applies to this site, all software you'll ever purchase, and really life in general:

    No one is forced or obligated to do anything. People create coasters because it's fun and satisfying to be creative, not because they have to create so many coasters. People upload them to share and get feedback. People get rewarded with comments, feedback, and scoring. Smacking down with all negative feedback hurts and eats away at the community.

    We on the NoLimits team are not obligated to stay here, interact with you guys, or, and this is key, ever release any updates to our software ever for any reason. Period.

    Let that sink in.

    I'm not trying to be an ass here. It's true. We have never been forced or been legally obligated to give you guys anything extra for free or otherwise. You purchased the software, we set up a registration key and provided the download. Once you clicked download and installed the software, the transaction was complete. We have never been obligated to release a single patch, update, or fix any bugs.

    But, we do, and we have been for years. We care about the quality of what we build, and the creativity and passion of the community making awesome rides makes us want to give you guys more tools. We like adding in new things and seeing how you guys react. We put in a ton of effort and are a small team. Name another company that has sold you software once and provided years of free content addons and upgrades, including significant new assets, tools, functionality, and new engine overhauls.

    So at this point, you guys have grown accustomed to the freebies. And in general we like giving you guys new tools to see how creative you can be with it. The problems happen when people start expecting and demanding it, then whine and complain when they don't get it or it's not exactly what they feel they deserve. It's the same cycle with the same underlying cause: non-stop negative feedback or the PERCEPTION of non-stop negative feedback leads new people to not want to share their coasters or join the community. It leads existing members to stop contributing because they can't make a perfect coaster and it'll be ripped apart. It makes the Dev team wonder why we keep interacting and giving away free updates for years.

    This post should not be looked at as a threat that if we don't get nothing but happy, sugary praise about how we're the best people ever that we're taking the ball and going home, no more updates, no more interaction. Far from it. This thread and the points being brought up by everyone should be looked at as a chance to start fixing the underlying behaviors that drive people away. We all will have to work on this and hold each other accountable.
    •  
      CommentAuthorride_op
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    (cont)

    First step that will help is something everyone, and I mean everyone, needs to get in the habit of doing here, in your daily activities, in the real world, and for the rest of your life: be kind.

    Start by looking for and complementing what's good. Realize that any creative effort you see is the result of days, weeks, months, or years of effort. Recognize this and provide comments about things that were done well, even if they aren't perfect. You'll have to reset your standards and look at what the person is trying to do. Then when giving feedback, don't go straight for the negative about what's bad without giving suggestions on how to improve it. Read, listen, and realize the effect your words are going to have. Discussions around issues and requests for new features are still welcome. Suggestions for improvement are welcome. Watch the tone of how you speak though and remember it's how your words are perceived, not what you had in mind. And realize that perhaps you're the one doing it wrong.

    This discussion is long overdue. The problems are not universal, and even those who do cross these lines don't do it all the time. The times it happens it stands out, and over time it has a cumulative effect. It's up to everyone (us included) to maintain a welcoming, friendly, helpful, inspiring place to build, share, and discuss. We all need to watch how we go about it and ensure we are always being constructive and not destructive (us included). We all need to realize our own behaviors and apologize when things go too far (us included). I'll start:

    I apologize that we are not doing as good a job as we normally do with our communications with the community, and I apologize personally for getting overly worked up with the 1.6 size comment mentioned in another thread.

    There, feels better to get that out of the way and admit that I'm not perfect and can do better. I'm as much a part of this community as anyone, and I promise that I'll keep doing better and doing my part to make this place a positive, welcoming, friendly place until we migrate to NLC where I'll do the same.

    I invite everyone else to do the same.

    -Ride_Op
    • CommentAuthornSeven
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    Thank the lord someone finally said it and started this dialogue.

    This site, community and program all share the same stigma in other circles and no matter how impressive the work is that comes out of a community like this, it comes with the idea that NL2 people are know-it-all nerds. Having been in this community for more than a solid year now, I know this isn't true and I've met some really great, modest people who happen to be fantastic with the program. But like Ride_op mentioned, it's a cumulative degeneration over a long period of time that causes this kind of crisis. I'm not sure how the community is doing with recurring new members, but I know in other communities which have really talented people, it's hard to attract and keep new members just by the unavoidable nature of intimidation alone.

    Fostering community is not easy - it's a heck of a lot easier to be comfortable in the community and say what you want without really thinking of the consequences - but put yourself in the shoes of someone who is giving this community a test drive. You love NL2 and haven't really found a place to show off your work - you try out the NLE, post your pic of your new dive coaster with a neon paint stripe on the spine...hoping not to be praised, but for it to be accepted at the very least... What would happen? Cmon, be honest. I've heard enough dive coaster shaping arguments...and honestly...paint arguments that I can predict this is what would happen:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "It's okay, but your shaping is really bad. also B&M doesn't use paint stripes maybe don't use that color"

    *then inserts 10-20 profile shots of B&M dive coaster drop shaping and proof that B&M doesn't have stripes*

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And you know what? You are probably dead on right. It probably is shit, the colors probably do suck and stripes on a coaster spine is just garish. Anyone new to this program probably does suck...they're new. But that doesn't matter...it really doesn't. More than anything in that exchange, you've rejected any hope of a healthy and respectable dialogue that helps that new member get better. Two things will happen - they'll either post something to save face, then never return to the site - OR - they'll get mad and fire back, starting the spark for a flame war of self-righteousness.

    In both scenarios, the community loses. Being absolutely right isn't the end game in fostering community. Being absolutely right makes you an isolationist...a dick...someone to avoid.

    There is actually a 3rd thing that can happen in that scenario I posed above - The new member does end up finding their footing, hangs out with other members of the site that are not you and holds a grudge against your demeanor, let's that fester and passive-aggressively deals with you and your buddies in public, harboring a slow but destructive schism that leads to us having open conversations about "why this community is not fun to be in anymore".

    One thoughtless remark can do so much damage.
  4.  
    ^Honestly, this is one of the main reasons I have hardly ever posted anything on the NLE. I struggle to find time between school and other tedious commitments to use NL2 as much as I'd like, so when I do complete a project, I don't feel like having it ripped apart without so much as an inkling of constructive criticism. I've learned NL2 almost completely by myself because I haven't wanted to engage heavily in the community until recently, which is a shame considering how much the community has to offer when members aren't one-upping each other with passive-aggressive comments that seek only to nitpick and belittle. To be fair, a lot of the toxicity I'm referring to happens in group messages outside of the exchange, but the point still stands for the community as a whole. I find that people tend to be much more polite, helpful, and constructive in private, so that's the avenue I tend to choose when I seek advice regarding NL2.
    • CommentAuthorMGCD
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    This topic has been an uplifting read. It's nice to pop back into the forum to see on open discussion about the dynamic that has unfolded since NL2 was released. Nowadays there is a whole new wave of new users, most probably coming from Steam, and other areas, so they do not need to be warded off by the air of pretentiousness that some users may put off.

    I hope the NL community can see eye to eye on this and make strides to be more mature and welcoming of new/novice users who look to post here.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKingRCT3
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: ride_opand I apologize personally for getting overly worked up with the 1.6 size comment mentioned in another thread.

    I owe you an apology as well Tom. What you said is really true: "Watch the tone of how you speak though and remember it's how your words are perceived, not what you had in mind". I didn't mean to say anything aggressively or reproachfully, but yeah, the bottomline is, if you felt that way, then that was aggressive to you no matter what and I feel sorry for that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorride_op
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    Thanks, I appreciate that. Apology accepted.

    -Ride_Op
    •  
      CommentAuthorbestdani
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017 edited
     
    I don't know these chats that that were mentioned but since I know others I just wanted to add to this discussion that people talking there might know each other very well and maybe use a lot of sarcasm, irony and other behind the lines talkings, which could easily be misinterpreted by others.

    If I would write here about some NL2 projects or about the program in the way I chat with a good friend about it, I'm pretty sure some others could get really upset very quickly, he on the other hand knows about my irony and sarcasm in these lines. I'm just telling that because I have the impression that some posts here are written that way and just got misinterpreted sometimes (of course I don't have this impression with all reactions). In another community in which I'm active there used to be a lot of talking like this in the forums, but this probably hold back newcomers who didn't know that and encouraged some people to really mock others and now it is slowly dying I think.

    I also think it is fine when an established community tries to save its "standards" (ideally by also being open for new ideas) but in a polite and respectful way. There is of course no need to fake interest in something when it isn't your thing or holding back suggestions when you think something could be better executed, but do not assume everyone has the same "standards" and interest that you have. I think it's also fine to clearify about these personal or main community interests to newcomers when it's done in a respectful way.
    •  
      CommentAuthorUncleArly
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    It's just what happens when you put a bunch of different people from different backgrounds and upbringings into the same space. People are different.

    Take a look at that old NLE skype. Apparently it was hilarious to use the word 'autism' like it was cool. For some people in that skype, that's funny. For me, its disgusting, so I left.

    No drama.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMrcrolly
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017 edited
     
    As someone who has definitely given in to toxicity both on here and in the chat, I want to apologize. I know I've gotten under the skin of a few members here and honestly I look back and feel embarrassed of some of the things I've said/done. All of it was immature, and a good chunk of it was a text-book definition of cyber-bullying. I'm sure as hell aware isn't acceptable, but at the time had no care given to acknowledge that. The fact that I can't fathom looking back at a lot of things I've said is an issue at heart, and I want to change myself for here on out.

    With that said, I'm not looking for sympathy, instead, I'm looking for a clean slate here and to start-over. An apology is long overdue on my end and I feel this is the only chance I'll have to give one. I don't expect instant forgiveness, but hopefully a change of actions will do us a bit better.
  5.  
    I think I may just be oblivious... but am I the only one here that has no idea what's going on here?

    I feel like I have not witnessed anything that you guys are talking about. Criticism is much less harsh than it was back in the coaster sims days for sure. I see this forum environment as pretty low key and, dare I say, supportive.
    •  
      CommentAuthorUncleArly
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     
    From my perspective, it's more the community that's on here but via other media, but not actually on this forum. The NLE skype for instance...
    •  
      CommentAuthorAJClarke0912
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017 edited
     

    Wow, some names I haven't seen in a while! How convenient for the observation I'm about to make here:

    Over the past year, the number of unique visitors has been declining, but more significantly, the number of returning users has been severely declining. A lot of this can be attributed to what Tom and N7 have said. I've also noticed a few of you mentioning "what's the problem?"

    For you guys, you're the ones who have molded this place to fit your needs best. And that's not a surprise or really anything to get directly upset about -- you 10-20 members are NL2 diehards and represent the deepest core of the community. But when you mold NLE to fit these ideals, you are single-handedly closing the door on the other 99%. And that's a problem.

    Unfortunately this isn't a simple fix. Hopefully a fresh start with NLC will foster diversity once again. Today though, turn the tables your way this time, and perhaps take in the criticism of what others have said here. Maybe think about it next time you post. Maybe use chatrooms to deal the big punches if you're gonna do that kinda thing.

    The community is fragmented in an almost surreal way. It's become "everyone and the hardcore vs. the ultra hardcore". (I mean, think about what normally gets critiqued here... It's baseline is already well above anything considered "normal".) That's not healthy. It'll be a slow rebuild -- we've lost a lot of regular members already. And I keep playing white knight which gets old!

    Criticism will always have its place and is extremely valuable, but you cannot run a video game/simulation community on criticism alone. It's no longer fun, which means there's no point in even playing in the first place.

    •  
      CommentAuthorBBSpeed26
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017
     

    A brief aside regarding the "NLE" Skype - if you find it to be toxic, leave it. Start a new one, or don't. Let me be very clear: the chat is not moderated, monitored, filtered, or censored in any way, and has no official association with- or support from the site or staff.

    If you're looking for a relatively safe, constructive space to talk coasters and related topics, it's the forums. Anywhere else - you're on your own.

    •  
      CommentAuthorUncleArly
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2017 edited
     
    That's why I left. But it's representing this community away from here. That is my point. Similar to pupils wearing school uniform. If you saw a child doing something bad, in your mind, it'd reflect badly on the school, even if it didn't happen in the school.
  6.  
    I do want to want to just quickly point out that the main NLE skype group has been fairly inactive for some time, and the new discord server run by Intim305 is actually running fairly smoothly compared to the previous skype incarnation
  7.  

    I'm really happy that this discussion is out here, because I think it is an issue that does need to be addressed. Very well said Ride_Op, Zergei, nSeven, Fuchschen, etc..

    Although constructive criticism is definitely good, I feel like this community has fallen into the habit of almost demanding things out of people (especially newer NL users) like we have some kind of obligation to perfect our rollercoasters.

    Honestly, I have not had many issues with this at all (sometimes I want people to be a little harder on me actually), but I do lurk on the forums a lot, and I find it to be a pretty big problem, especially against newer members. People who haven't developed their skills as much as some of the more experienced members on here usually get little to no feedback, but when they do, it is often times harsh or demanding, which certainly is discouraging. All I wanted when I was a newer NL user about 2 years ago was to be accepted into the community, maybe get treated like some of the more "popular" users (have many people complement my work, give honest feedback, not "talk down" to me). As much as it is great to constantly praise some of the more talented NL users on here to acknowledge their skill and hard work, I think in order for our community to grow, we really need to help our newer members a lot. For me at least, when I was a newer member, people praising my work gave me the motivation to finish rides and improve my skill, and it really helped knowing that some people cared about the time and effort I was putting into a coaster even if it wasn't that great. I'm certainly not saying that if someone asks for honest criticism, you should say that it is good if it isn't, but at least make a conscious effort to give a complement or encouragement.

    Sorry for the little rant.

    tl;dr - Make sure to help out the newer members! It will build a stronger and better community. A little complement and constructive criticism goes a long way.

  8.  
    I've noticed the harsher treatment of newer members. Wasn't always that way. When I first found this forum in Late 2015. I thought it was awesome, Still do mind you, that a forum was centered around No Limits and tips and tricks discussed on here have made me a much better NL designer.
  9.  
    I hate to weigh in on this, but I have to agree with Kyle (Dustin?). I am no where near what AJ would call a "core" member of the community, yet I don't understand what this thread is about. I've been on this forum for nearly six years now and while I've gotten in my fair share of arguments and have had plenty of criticism and """"toxicity"""" thrown my way, it never really bothered me. Ultimately the harsh eye of some of the incredibly talented and smart people here has made me have a better understanding of NL2 and coaster design as a whole, and I am grateful for it. I think many people misinterpret criticism and general annoyance at a lack of common sense as being hateful and that is simply not the case.
    •  
      CommentAuthorAJClarke0912
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2017 edited
     

    I think many people misinterpret criticism and general annoyance at a lack of common sense as being hateful and that is simply not the case.

    I think it's sometimes this, but not always. It's more that while criticism is great, it gets old for some when they hear it exclusively. Sounds pedantic, but allow me to explain differently.

    Say you produce music as another hobby and share your work. (I don't know anything about music production so it's just an example.) You start with "Hey this is my 5th or 6th song, I was inspired by this and I think it turned out cool. What do you guys think?" And you share with your friends and they go off the deep end with nitty gritty gear talk about what to do next time and how you should invest in this and spend more time on this. That's cool, it's beneficial. But damn, you're just kinda making music for fun, yunno? Why so serious?

    People post on here for critique and to just simply share. Perhaps people find that NLE takes NoLimits too seriously for too much of the time. I think people are starting to legitimately get bored with that and would rather go outside instead. Remember when you just wanted to build roller coasters that looked better and smoother than RCT? When the only requirement was "that's safe and fun" and that was it? Some see technicalities as fun, but others see it as a fun sponge when that type of critique is all they get after working on something all day.

    Anyway, that's the only reason I can come up with on my own, because we've seen a notable decline. We keep seeing topics like this come up yearly - they didn't necessarily in the past. And we don't really know how to fix something meta/abstract like this either. Again, a fresh start on NLC with a bunch more people may help alleviate the echo chamber, but we'll see. I don't think there's any particularly wrong behavior with the criticism said here (although I may be missing the harsher things said), but others have voiced their disinterest in it.

  10.  
    I may as well contribute a little more. Again, this is why I sort of like web dev / online communities and such. The software (yeah, even if you don't think of the forums as software, it is) users have can GREATLY impact how they act and what they do. I'll use what Coasterguy246 said to clarify what I mean.

    Posted By: COASTERGUY246I do want to want to just quickly point out that the main NLE skype group has been fairly inactive for some time, and the new discord server run by Intim305 is actually running fairly smoothly compared to the previous skype incarnation

    But why? It's more or less the exact same people plus and minus some. The reason is because the way Skype works simply didn't fit that chat's needs. Discord on the other hand is almost perfect, however. One group that can serve one purpose that can have several chats in it, that way everything is divided and there are specific places you post in for certain topics (e.g. in the NL(E) discord there's a general, off topic, what did you just do in nl chat, etc). That is much better than having one straight-down chat that's suppose to encompass NL content / off topic / news / etc.

    I always keep that in mind while working on NLC. That whatever I add is going to affect the user in some way, and I try to use that mindset to create a productive and cohesive site. At least in regards to the forum, I like to think of it as a very modern web forum that's also integrated with the exchange. As I said in the actual thread, I want people to be able to express and showcase their NL creations without limitations (get it hahaha). I know that doesn't necessarily fix if a user wants to criticize due to realism / shaping / whatever (although as Justin said since it will be a brand new site it may very well fix that issue), but again, the software matters and I'm trying to make it lean towards the fun, more creative side. Again, continuing the software affects the users idea, if you think about it, NLE's rating system divides the actual rating a user gives to a park by three categories, adrenaline, originality, and technicality, and also gives a list of things you should rate the coaster on (or else you aren't rating "correctly"). That in itself is almost forcing users to judge based on realism and what not. But that is part of the exchange which is a seperate beast on it's own.

    There's a lot more I could say. NL is definitely the best roller coaster simulator to date and I think it's a cool talk in general because NL has very very very diverse community that has a quite a history and is also really unique and has unique needs. Those are just my thoughts :]
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      CommentAuthorFüchschen
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2017 edited
     
    i think, this topic turned the wrong way.


    Posted By: bestdani
    I also think it is fine when an established community tries to save its "standards" (ideally by also being open for new ideas) but in a polite and respectful way. There is of course no need to fake interest in something when it isn't your thing [...]
    I think it's also fine to clearify about these personal or main community interests to newcomers when it's done in a respectful way.

    Last line: not only for newcommers. treat everyone with respect!


    Thank you.
    Those are the 3 points, that are important to me. And for some reason, a few are complaining about criticism. This is not the problem.

    Something like (for example): "Why are you posting a coaster like this -.-" is not something i would call criticism. It goes more into the hate-section.
    (had to come up with a line, that is similar to what i have seen over the years, but not an exact quote).
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      CommentAuthorzampano
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2017 edited
     
    Let me say something here, and it goes along the lines of the respect that nSeven talked about.

    I know this might not be something that is done on purpose or that can be changed by pointing it out, but I'll do so anyways. Take the "What did you just do in NoLimits" thread for example. I see lots of cool stuff on there, and I see very little interaction. Most people will just load off their screens and don't care or at least not react to other's. There is however a certain dynamic with a bunch of people who will comment more often, but almost only on posts from the same group. I know that specific thread is not really about in-depth feedback, but you can see the same effect outside of it, just maybe not as clearly. It illustrates quite well how new users will most likely have a very hard time trying to be "seen" I think. Also, as bestdani said, there often are many insider jokes going on, which is fine in general but can also become a serious obstacle for new people to have part in a conversation.

    At the same time, I think that this is also a general "problem" of the present time, I see a lot of communities boil down to the core members with very few new users coming in, which in turn will find it difficult to be accepted cause they will have to meet the criteria that the core members have automatically agreed upon over the years. Communities are also less popular in general since facebook became common, and substitutes that take far less dedication like the steam workshop have also become more viable for many.

    I can only say: Try to be open to people as well as to ideas. If you see something you like, just say so, regardless of who posted it. You can still hype popular builders, but just try to get a positive vibe going for everyone.


    edit: before anyone gets the wrong impression I wanna say that I myself have felt this way in the past, which of course took away from my motivation both to post and in general. This post however was meant to be about how I can see that same effect across the forums.
    • CommentAuthorA113
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2017
     
    my simple rule of thumb for giving feedback - start with what works, then say what doesn't work. the key part is offering a solution for said problem